Interviewee: Hilda
Jefferies and Earl Jefferies
Interviewer: Jeannette Lasansky (11-19-76)
Jeannette:
Maybe we could get started on the one room schoolhouse, what it was like to
go there...?
Hilda:
I went to school in a one room schoolhouse, my mother and my dad both did,
my sisters and brothers did and it was located about a mile and a half from
where we live now, (Carroll). It was really interesting. We had from the
first to the eighth grade one teacher, as high as 28 youngsters at a time,
and really we had no trouble. It was more like the open classrooms today,
but there was discipline. Not everyday did their own thing, like they do
today. And I walked from the Tea Spring Lodge or the Sand Fun Lodge, which
was 4½ miles one way and almost 5½ the other, when I went to school for most
of my school years. My sister - she did the same thing and my brothers too.
And I boarded with my aunt when I was younger, when I first started school,
who lived just about a half a mile from the school, but the latter part of
my school years, I did the walking - through the woods - never even saw a
bear - and there were bear in this country at that time. I saw deer, grouse
which always scared the daylights out of me. Our teachers were very good, I
mean they gave you more than just the three R's. They taught us things that
are worthwhile for the rest of your life. We had especially three of them,
the Schwank people, Charlie Schwank who later was a teacher in the Jersey
Shore High School and his sister Anna and their niece Ada Dowdy, and I've
kept in contact with these two people, the younger ones ever since they've
taught our school we've been good friends. They taught us a lot of things
besides what was in the book. It was very good. I loved the school, hated to
miss it, but I did get snowed out once in a while, and had to stay home for
maybe a week at a time when our roads were snowed in, couldn't get out, and
I guess that's about the most important. Sometimes we had pretty big boys,
who became a little bit obnoxious (chuckle) but normally everyday got along
pretty well.
Jeannette:
Did the fellows come back who were maybe older than a normal eighth grade
age?
Hilda:
Yes, yes, they did. They used to, not so much when I went, but when my
sister and brothers went. They went 'til they were 21 years old sometimes,
because there wasn't any local high school at that time. Most of them
finished up their entire schooling in a one room schoolhouse, first to
eighth grade school.
Jeannette:
When would you start?
Hilda:
We'd start in September and end in April. It was an eight-month school year
instead of the nine which we have now.
Jeannette:
Was that because of farming, maybe, in part?
Hilda:
I think so. I believe that had a lot to do with it, and some of the older
boys and girls would take jobs. The girls would go out and do the housework
on the farms and the boys would be hired, and I think that was the big
reason. And all schools, even the town schools didn't have nine months at
that time.
Jeannette:
How long did this school keep on going as a one room schoolhouse? Do you
know when it closed?
Hilda:
Our youngest daughter who is going to be 28 years old, she had her first two
years there.
Jeannette:
That would be about 1947.
Hilda:
'52 or '54 is when the school closed and then it was used as a residence for
a couple years, and then a group of men bought it for a hunting cabin.
Finally when the Shortway or Foute 80 came through,it was completely
demolished. The interchange is right where the school had been.
Jeannette:
Now what was it like in the classroom?
Hilda:
It had a pot-belly stove right in the middle and it used hard coal to keep
it warm and it was very nice and warm, always felt comfortable. Mornings,
sometimes before the fire came up, it was chilly, but otherwise it was quite
comfortable. And we had a water cooler, a little faucet in the bottom where
we got our water. Previous to that it used to be just an open bucket with a
dipper in it. That was before they were conscious of sanitation, I
guess.
Jeannette:
You didn't have separate cups? You just had the one?
Hilda:
No. You did if you took them. Otherwise a lot of the families didn't think
of it.
Jeannette:
And you'd bring your lunch?
Hilda:
Always brought our lunch, brought our own lunch. We had no hot meals and
very few had thermos bottles at the time. In fact they didn't have them when
I went but then later when our children went to school there, then they had
thermos bottles and we'd send along in them warm chocolate or milk, or
whatever.
Jeannette:
And was the time about the same that the children go to school now?
Hilda:
Well, we started school at nine and ended at four, had an hour off for lunch
and 15-minute recess in the morning and 15 in the afternoon.
Jeannette:
Were the texts the same that had been used for a long time or had they been
changed?
Hilda:
If I remember, they had the McGuffey Reader at first, the reader which there
had been quite a lot of talk about that in the last few years, as you
already know, and we had, I remember, when I was in the eighth grade, about
eight books, eight different books. I've even forgotten what 'em all
was.
Hilda:
There was mental arithmetic. We had grammer, a little bit of English. In
grammer class, each class would be called to sit up in the front row and
recite or be called on, or if it was written work, we'd go to the board and
write it. It was kind of nice. (Chuckle)
Jeannette:
When you went up, did you go with all the different grades at once?
Hilda:
No, each grade went up of his own accord and they'd call you. They' say
"rise" "pass" and "be seated", - that's the way. Everybody rose at one time
of that particular class and they might be scattered all over the room
because they didn't have them sitting, one grade here, one grade there.
Jeannette:
Did you have your own choice where you sat?
Hilda:
Usually it was like that in the fall, you picked your seat and then you kept
it for the rest of the year unless you had some problem, then sometimes the
teacher would move you. (Laughter)
Jeannette:
What does "pass" mean?
Hilda:
That would be when you got up from your seat, and then you marched or walked
up to the front of the room, and that would be “pass”. And the same reverse
step when you'd go to the back of the class.
Jeannette:
Was the front on a platform or raised?
Hilda:
The teacher's desk was a trifle higher but that had large legs on it and was
up a little higher.
Jeannette:
Did the teachers stay for very long?
Hilda:
They'd teach as much as two and three years at a time before there'd be
another teacher, when I went. Now, I don't know about earlier than
that.
Jeannette:
Do you know why the teachers stayed for that long? Were they going on to a
different school?
Hilda:
In the township, they would be changed around from one school to another by
the school board. Whenever they had difficulty with any school, some¬ times
they'd transfer them in the middle of the term, but not as a rule. That
didn't happen often.
Jeannette:
Were there certain choices in keeping the school up?
Hilda:
Yes. Each one would take his turn at the sweeping job and carrying in the
coal. The boys would do that and bring in the water to fill the water
cooler. Each person had his chore. They just assigned usually two to do
this. Somebody would be cleaning the blackboard in the meantime. It was
really nice. You can't imagine how nice it really was.
Earl:
Hilda, tell them about where they got the water.
Hilda:
Oh, they got their water from a little natural spring. It was about an
eighth of a mile wide, possible. We'd get it there. Nobody seemed to have
any difficulty with bugs or anything in those days. Today, they do though.
Now that spring was down below where the old schoolhouse sits.
Jeannette:
What about the discipline? You said it was quite disciplined. What was that
like? What happened?
Hilda:
Oh, yes. When the teachers needed to paddle somebody, they did. And if they
disobeyed on a minor thing, they'd stand on the floor for so long, sometimes
with their face in the corner. Sometimes you'd just have to stand and face
the whole school depending what the teacher wanted, depending on what his or
her method was.
Jeannette:
Was there a paddle that was prominent on display?
Hilda:
Usually up above the blackboards or the maps. Sometimes it was just a piece
of a yardstick or something like that, never anything too much. The kids
were usually pretty good.
Jeannette:
But it was fairly disciplined?
Hilda:
Very much disciplined. Now you know today with the open school, everybody
talks or moves or does what they pretty much want to. You couldn't talk out
loud during school session. If you wanted to know some¬ thing, you held up
your hand, the teacher'd call you by name and ask you what you wanted. If
you needed to go out to the outside pottie, you'd raise your hand and ask
"May I go out, please?" and she'd tell you to go. You knew enough to come
back in time or she came out and got you.
Jeannette:
No dawdling?
Hilda:
No dawdling.
Jeannette:
What about helping each other?
Hilda:
Now you see all the classes were listed as A. B and C class. Beginner were
under the C class, or the primer class, and if the older ones were finished
with their work and other ones in the class needed help, you were allowed to
help, but ask the teacher first. We always respected what the
teacher...
Jeannette:
And do you think that sort of helped?
Hilda:
Oh, I think it did.
Jeannette:
What was the feeling of going into a school room where you have eighth
graders and you're a first grader? Do you remember emotions?
Hilda:
Oh, not exactly, I don't, because I did a little studying before I went
because I had spent my first year in school when I was nine years old. I had
gone a few months when I was eight years and I didn't go a full term until I
was nine years old, and I was kind of acclimated to it, and I usually got
along pretty well with people, so not too much trouble. One cousin and I
used to scrap like the dickens, we just went on...today we're both up in
years and we still don't see eye-to-eye. (laughter) She was more or less
boisterous and I was just full of pep and life, but not in the same
way.
Jeannette:
The texts, they would coordinated with things like maps?
Hilda:
Yes, in geography we used maps a lot. And you'd have your assignments out of
your own book. Everybody had their own book.
Jeannette:
Did you pay for your book and keep it?
Hilda:
No. no.
Jeannette:
Was that passed down?
Hilda:
That was passed down. And when you were finished, you turned it in when the
school term ended and it was passed on the next year. Lots of times you
would get a book somebody had had maybe five, six years before, and when
they got too badly used, why they'd get new ones.
Jeannette:
Did the books basically remain the same in the period you were in
school?
Hilda:
Pretty much the same, I would say for the years that I went to school. Not
too much change in the years that I went. I went from the time I was nine
until I was sixteen. Then I was through with grade school. Then I went to
high school for a year. I started the second year and dropped out. I was a
"dropout", but not literally like they think now because I felt my parents
needed me more than I needed to go to school. To try to drive eleven miles
in a Model-T Ford and go home and help do chores in the evening and hurry to
get up early in the morning, this was too much of a job. And I've never been
sorry because my dad and mother really needed my help and needed my being
there with the car and everything.
Jeannette:
And why had you started late?
Hilda:
That was, I guess, due to the fact that I was living so far away to get to
school. I had to walk alone because I was the last one in the family. I
didn't have anybody to walk with. I had to go two miles through the woods
before I picked up my companions. And that was one of the reasons.
Jeannette:
Pretty good walk.
Hilda:
I don't know, maybe I was retarded, I don’t know. (Laughter) But I don't
think so. I did study for it. You know, we were studying a little bit
before. We had a friend who came hunting to our house for maybe, oh, 20
years before that time and he decided that he was going to give me books
before I ever went to school. That helped a lot. My mother and father was
learnin' all the things. Got along pretty well.
Jeannette:
Was there distance between you and your brother...?
Hilda:
Fourteen months, fourteen years between my sister and myself. I came along
late in life.
Jeannette:
Now you were saying that a lot of what you learned was not in books. What
kind of things?
Hilda:
How to treat your fellow man and just a general Christian back ground, not
that they taught any particular denomination or anything. The one man was a
minister and his sister and niece were both Christian women. I think that
all the children that went to school under that program ended up with a
pretty nice -- they were just good kids, people, that's all.
Jeannette:
Would there have been anything else that you would have learned that
wouldn't have been academic?
Hilda:
No, I don't think so.
Jeannette:
Was this their sole profession until they retired?
Hilda:
Yes, that was their profession. And then I had other good teachers who
dropped teaching after a few years of it and went to farming and got married
and did other things like that. I think there were three who stuck with
teaching until they retired.
Jeannette:
Was it well paid?
Hilda:
That I really couldn’t tell you.
Jeannette:
Was it a respected profession?
Hilda:
It was a respected profession but as far as paying is concerned, I don't
think it was very high, not at that time. (Question directed at E) -I think
you saw some of the old books? Who showed those to you?
Earl:
I forget what it amounted to but it wasn't much though.
Hilda:
$50.00 a month or something like that.
(F)
Oh, it wasn't that much. I think it was $30.00.
Hilda:
And you had to furnish your own transportation or board at the nearest home.
One, this Mr. Schwank, he used to ski for his home was over at Eastville. He
used to ski through the woods along the old railroad grade down to school.
He skied when we had a lot of snow. He'd drive his horse at other
times.
Jeannette:
Would students ski in?
Hilda:
No. no.
Jeannette:
That was unusual.
Hilda:
That was an unusual thing. He was the only one locally who had skies at that
time.
Jeannette:
Were they things he made himself?
Hilda:
I think they were.
Jeannette:
You had mentioned the tea that we'll be having at lunch?
Hilda:
That used to grow very profusely on the tea knob which is south of the Sand
Fun Lodge. We'd gather it by the armsfull when I was a little girl, 10 or 12
years old. My daddy and I would go for tea in late September. That was when
you would pick it because then the danger of snakes would be a little less
than earlier. He'd take me with him and we'd get armsfull of it: strip the
leaves off.
Jeannette:
This is the goldenrod.
Hilda:
This is the goldenrod or Blue Mountain tea as it's known and that's what
we're going to have for lunch today.
Jeannette:
Now you used all leaves?
Hilda:
Just the leaves, not the stem. Just strip the leaves off and dry them, put
them in a can and keep them indefinitely.
Jeannette:
Does this have to be dried in the sun?
Hilda:
No, it can be dried in a room or any place where there is an air
circulation. In the bedroom you might do it, on papers or on cloth; when
it's dry, you put it away. It dries easily and quite fast.
Jeannette:
Did you use it because it had a particularly good taste or did it have the
qualities...?
Hilda:
Yes, yes, it had a particularly good taste. It had sort of an anise taste
and most people like it, but you didn't use that exclusively. We'd have
store tea which we liked. We'd have that every now and then. I think you
would get tired of it if you had it too often.
Jeannette:
It's nice to have it just once in a while. Were there any other kinds of
things in terms of foods, that you'd gather and treat specially?
Hilda:
Oh, yes, brackens, the three-fork fern that grows and comes up to a
fiddleneck. We'd get that every spring. That's a must with me now. It isn't
spring without that. I'm like Euell Gibbons - have to have that bracken
every spring.
Jeannette:
Now what do you do with it?
Hilda:
We cook it in salt water, drain it, put a little browned butter on, salt and
pepper it and it's delicious. Our children grew up with it and they all love
it. It's like mushrooms. You have to know what fern you're picking because
you could get the wrong thing. And of course I've learned to cook lamb's
quarter. They grew that in the cornfields and in the gardens. Of course
everybody knows about dandelion. That's nothing unusual.
Jeannette:
For lamb's quarter, what do you do?
Hilda:
Same procedure, just like spinach. You can freeze or can it. You can use it
like spinach and very few people know the difference.
Jeannette:
The dandelion you use in salads?
Hilda:
Yes, dandelion's a must. And there's poke but I've only learned to use that
in the last 20 years. You use it when it's about 5 to 6 inches tall, never
any taller than that; and you cook that and you could put a sour vinegar
dressing on it or you can butter it. It's very good. But after that, it
becomes quite poisonous. Those "burries" are poisonous.
Jeannette:
When does it become usable?
Hilda:
In May, the latter part of May is when the poke comes up for use. The middle
of May this bracken is ready to be used.
Jeannette:
And then in terms of the poke, you have a very short time in which to pick
it?
Hilda:
That's right, I'd say about a week or ten days, maybe two weeks at the most.
By that time it shoots so fast you just don't take any chance on it. And
it's sold in the market. Even Harrisburg has it on their market.
Jeannette:
Are parts of the poke poisonous?
Hilda:
The whole stalk after it gets to a certain age is, and the the "burries" are
extremely poisonous.
Jeannette:
The leaves may or may not be?
Hilda:
I'm not so sure about that. I've always been told never to use it after a
certain stage, and I've gone along with that.
Jeannette:
Can you tell in looking at the size?
Hilda:
Yes, I think I can. I never pick it when it's more than about that
high.
Jeannette:
Five or six inches.
Hilda:
It has a very nice yellowish, reddish, crisp look, something like asparagus
at the base. Is there anything else that I use? Oh, yes, sour grass. That
makes a delicious salad. Do you know what sour grass looks like?
Earl:
Looks like a cloverleaf.
Hilda:
Looks like a closer but the middle leaf is much, much longer. If you gather
that and put one of these dressings that you mix up, you know the "nice and
easy" or something like that, it's delicious.
Jeannette:
Do you know anything about local herbs?
Hilda:
Just the ones that grow in the garden, like rue and parsley and fennel, but
I don't grow too many of them. talking about going to school and living in
an isolated area, back in 1923, my father was six or seven weeks in bed. He
had drank water when he was overheated and that apparently gave him a case
of gastritis. Well, he was in bed for seven weeks and my mother took care of
all the barnwork and took care of him at the same time. And then my sister
came home. She had been married by that time and she came home. We were
going to our next door neighbors, who lived two miles away from us, to get
our mail,and we took our old saw horse who was way up in his twenties at the
time. We hitched him to a cutter; there was snow on the road at that time,
and we started for the mail. We got about one half the way and we saw that a
big tree had crossed the road. We didn't know how we were going to get the
horse or the cutter across this tree. We unhitched the horse and led him
around and he stood still while we lifted the cutter over - hitched him up
and went on and got the mail. When we came back from getting the mail, we
did the same thing all over again.
Jeannette:
What is a cutter?
Hilda:
A cutter is a sleigh that you can put two seats on like a spring wagon. You
know what a spring wagon is, don't you? This cutter has a long runner and
comes up in a sort of a curl like that in front and has a dashboard on it
and two seats. You hitch one horse to it at the shaft and that's what's
called a cutter.
Jeannette:
Do you know how it got that name?
Hilda:
Well, the only thing I can think of is because it cuts through the snow.
It's not like a sleigh. It's different.
Jeannette:
What do you use it for?
Hilda:
You haul your groceries in it, things like that. I think that it's a handier
thing in a way than what a fancier sleigh because you had very little room
with a nice fancy sleigh except where you put your feet. Then you'd have to
pile things on top of them. We always used the cutter. My dad had a large
bobsled too. That was two sections of sled which had a big wagon box on it.
We'd take that to parties. We'd load the neighbors up and go to oyster
suppers and dances and things like that.
Jeannette:
And what are oyster suppers?
Hilda:
Well, we'd get a whole bunch of people together and have fried oysters,
oyster stew and crackers, and bread and butter, and that was about it. They
used to be called cyster duppers.
Jeannette:
Where would they get the oysters?
Hilda:
They got them shipped in from the bay by train. You see we had a train going
through here.
Jeannette:
Oh, from the Chesapeake?
Hilda:
Yes, they'd come in by the gallon, fresh shucked oysters.
Jeannette:
And that was sort of a major social event?
Hilda:
That was a major social event for the winter time, plus square dancing, yes,
quite a few square dances. And they'd meet and square dance in the homes.
Sometimes they'd rent a hall like an Oddfellows Hall. My dad used to be a
fiddler. He never took a lesson in his life, and he had a violin. In fact,
he even made a violin which I still have. But he had another one that he had
bought and used to play for these square dances. He and a cousin of my
mother's used to play together. My sister used to cord along with them on
the guitar. My brother did too sometimes when he'd be home.
Jeannette:
Do you know about the songs he played? Is there anybody doing that
anymore?
Hilda:
Not locals, there isn't. I used to play the "Arkansas Traveler". That was
more of a dialogue that we'd go through. That was more of an entertainment
feature of a dance or when one had guests for supper, he would be called
upon to play this "Arkansas Traveler". Recite with it, that was
interesting.
Jeannette:
Are there songs that are very local?
Hilda:
No, I really don't know. I think they're used in other places too, the same
type of song, because I know when they'd visit in Danville, they'd learn new
tunes. They'd come home and bring them up here.
Jeannette:
So the tunes travelled?
Hilda:
They travelled.
Jeannette:
Were there other kinds of dances other than the square dance?
Hilda:
Not when I grew up.
Jeannette:
Like a polka?
Hilda:
Not too many were done then.
Jeannette:
Was the schottishe played?
Hilda:
My daddy used to play it but they didn't do the dance with it. My grandma
did. She was very good. She could do a schottishe and she was an extremely
good waltzer. She was born in Germany and she could waltz very well.
Jeannette:
What was the schottishe like?
Hilda:
It was snappy, sort of a quick, I would say more like the polka but
different, I didn't do any of these.
Jeannette:
Were the dances done by older people?
Hilda:
Only the older people did the schottishe at that time. But then about, I
would say in the late thirties and forties, some of our local girls learned
to polka and they did the polka then, but I never learned to do that.
Jeannette:
What other kinds of things would be done in the winter to get together?
Hilda:
Quilting bees. They did a lot of quilting. The women would get to mingle a
little and get together and quilt and have a nice big meal with it.
Jeannette:
Would they have done the piecing before?
Hilda:
Oh, yes.
Jeannette:
How would that go? Would people bring separate pieces?
Hilda:
No. usually each person who was going to have the quilting, would have it at
her home from a quilt that she had already finished, ready to guilt, and
then the other ladies would be invited in and they'd get it done that much
quicker. And they were very fussy about quilting. Sometimes they did it
along each seam of each patch on each side and that took lots of time.
Jeannette:
Double the amount.
Hilda:
They doubled the amount. They didn't do it like they do today.
Jeannette:
What if somebody didn't quilt up to par? (Laughter)
Hilda:
They weren't invited back the next time. If they made too many big
(Laughter) stitches, they weren't invited back.
Jeannette:
How long would a quilt take to be done?
Hilda:
Oh, it took weeks in the wintertime if you did it yourself. There's only
about four people that can work on a side of a quilting frame comfortably.
They do maybe a half a quilt in a day with that many working on it, and then
maybe they'd have another one another time or the owner of the quilt would
finish it.
Jeannette:
Would many quilting bees occur in a winter?
Hilda:
Quite a number, maybe six or eight in that little colony (county?). When
people came to our house they had to drive anywhere from six to seven miles
to get there. And the same way when my mother went to quilt, she'd have to
drive to get there.
Jeannette:
So it was as much a social...?
Hilda:
It was pretty much a social function.
Jeannette:
...as well as getting something done. The men would not be in the house at
this time?
Hilda:
Not usually. They went about their own business and came in to eat, of
course, at noon. Then men whose wives went to the quilting usually stayed
home that day. (Chuckle)
Jeannette:
Would a man ever quilt?
Hilda:
Not that I know of, but I did have a neighbour who did a lot of crocheting,
a man, and he was very good at it. Incidentally he became a jeweler. That
was Harry.
Jeannette:
Can you remember any of the patterns and the reasons why they were called
what they were? I know you have something like "The Drunkard's Path"
and...
Hilda:
"The Drunkard's Path" and “The Bear Paw” and ”The Nine Patch”, and a lot of
different ones. They got to appliqueing quilts too, later on. They were very
pretty. Two were called "The Wedding Ring" and "The Flower Garden". I still
have a "Flower Garden" ready to put together. (Chuckle) I never know how
I'll accomplish it.
Jeannette:
In the middle, what kind of filling would they use?
Hilda:
They used bathing at that time which was a rolled cotton. It came in a big
roll, and then later on they had a thinner material to use. My mother also
used sheet blanket, you know one of the cotton sheet blankets to fill her
quilts and that made a nice soft, comfortable quilt. It washed better when
you went to toss it in the washing machine. It stayed together nice.
Jeannette:
Was that a wool or a cotton?
Hilda:
A cotton. And then for haps you would use real lamb's wool from the sheep.
You would shear the sheep, wash the wool and then pick it by hand - the
pulling process. We sleep under a wool hap all the time.
Jeannette:
What is a hap?
Hilda:
It's like the acrylan comforts that you can get today. They're real light
and warm. Well, your wool hap is pretty much the same but it's a trifle
heavier.
Jeannette:
So it would be one sheet of material?
Hilda:
One sheet of material with the filling inside. It's wool that you'd pull by
hand, and then you'd have to level that. You'd hve to put it all and you'd
feel whether it was even all the way around with your hand and then knot it.
You didn't quilt that. You knotted that.
Jeannette:
Your husband was mentioning the yarrow tea.
Hilda:
Yarrow. We still use yarrow now. It's a good thing to use if you have gall
bladder trouble. My sister's taken it for years and years. She's 83 years
old and she just declares that is the thing that's kept her from having
surgery. Do you know what yarrow looks like?
Jeannette:
No, I don't. It's a tame flower which has a very tiny flower and it's in a
cluster. It's similar to "Queen Anne's Lace," but it's different. There's a
similarity to it if you're not sure of one or the other and you could be
mistaken about it. You bring that in, cut it up, and dry it. Then you brew
it and drink that tea anytime you feel like it.
Jeannette:
Yarrow looks like like "Queen Anne's Lace?"
Hilda:
It has a white flower.
Jeannette:
And it has a rather broad, green leaf?
Hilda:
No, very ferny, very lacy, little fern-like leaf. I've picked lots of "Queen
Anne's Lace" but right now my mind's on the yarrow and I can't think of just
what the leaf's like on the "Queen Anne's Lace". I recall wild carrot. It's
considered a need.
Jeannette:
You pick it up and it has like a little carrot below?
Hilda:
Yes, and it will have a little carrot.
Jeannette:
And that is yarrow?
Hilda:
No. no, the yarrow is different. Yarrow doesn't have a bulb at the
bottom.
Jeannette:
O.K., but the leaf looks like that?
Hilda:
A little bit. The leaf looks a little bit like that and the blossom has a
similarity, enough so that if you didn't know one from the other definitely,
you could be mistaken.
Jeannette:
Now, how do you prepare that?
Hilda:
Just scald it like you would after it's dried. I just take a bunch in my
hand and then put a quart of water on it and strain it and after it's
steeped a while, then you drink it. I have some out in the refrigerator
right now.
Jeannette:
You're using what comes out of a leaf mainly when you're scalding?
Hilda:
No, the blossom.
Jeannette:
Do you cut the whole plant?
Hilda:
About 10" of plant you cut up and that's all - not down where it's real
tough and green.
Jeannette:
So from the top, you go down about 10".
Hilda:
That's right and if you get it too low, it gets very bitter, extremely
bitter if you get the main stem. I mean the heavy stem - it makes it
bitter.
Jeannette:
Now, can you store that or do you have to use it as you make it?
Hilda:
Well, I never keep it much more than two weeks in the refrigerator. It keeps
well that long but I think it's good not to have it any longer than
that.
Jeannette:
Would you have it if you didn't have a gall bladder problem?
Hilda:
Yes, I would take it for diabetes or something like that. If you had a
slight retention of sugar, you would use it. I know of people who have used
it and have kept their sugar down. Adale Davis writes much about it. We've
known about it long before I ever knew of Adale David -- and then we used
it. My sister used it for about 30 years and she had gall bladder attacks
one after the other. The yarrow always seems to pull her out of it.
Jeannette:
Now, are there other things you take to cure things?
Hilda:
Yes, there's the sweet fern that grows in the mountains. That's good for a
number of things. I'm not sure just what all it's supposed to be good for.
Alfalfa is good for tea and that's another thing that's good for diabetes.
Alfalfa tea's supposed to be very good but we have never used that.
Huckleberry tea is another good thing. It's made from the leaves of a
huckleberry plant.
Earl:
(suggestion from Earl) (Pipsissewa is good)
Hilda:
Pipsissewa is extremely good for the stomach. You can eat the leaf just as
it grows and that's good for an upset stomach. It's a bittersweet juicy
leaf. I don't know whether you know what it's like or not. It doesn't grown
as plentiful around here as it used to. It's an Indian name. The Indians
used to use it. Of course there's wintergreen, which was commonly called
teaberry. A lot of people make tea out of that.
Jeannette:
Are they the same, wintergreen and teaberry?
Hilda:
That's right, they're one and the same thing. If you get a teaberry tea
leaf, you can see how good it tastes. It's the same favor as wintergreen. I
think wintergreen's made from it, the flavor you buy in bottles.
Jeannette:
Now, I notice that you can get teaberry ice cream.
Hilda:
Yes. Do you know what they make the teaberry ice cream out of? Those little
flat teaberry candies, the pink ones. That's what they use to make ice
cream. At least when we made homemade ice cream from wintergreen, that's
what we used.
Jeannette:
Where do you get the pink? Is it a natural kind of condition?
Hilda:
Yes, it would be from the berry because they're very colorful. People would
gather them here and can them. They would can them for a relish for meats
and things like that. They would add spice to the teaberries too. They would
put maybe a clove or two in the jar and would serve these "burries" with the
park roast. But now there's very few wintergreen berries to be found or
teaberries as they're called around here.
Jeannette:
Would you use the leaf for something else?
Hilda:
You could put leaves in your pears. You know the keefer pear is kind of a
bland pear and you can put wintergreen candy or wintergreen leaves in
it.
Jeannette:
And would that give a different taste than the berry?
Hilda:
Not necessarily. No, it's the same. The berry tastes the same as the leaf.
There is very little difference between the berry and the leaf. There's a
few growing around now but nothing like there used to be when the grouse
were plentiful. That would be their main feed in the fall, these
teaberries.
Jeannette:
Are there fewer grouse now?
Hilda:
Oh, yes, they're very scarce now. I saw two all of last year. One was about
two miles and half east of us and the other was over near Lagonia (sp) They
were in the road. That's the only two that I saw all of last year.
(F)
When we moved here there were acres of teaberries down near the road, The
denisty of the forest has killed them all out because they must have lots of
sunlight.
Hilda:
And a certain moisture, too. They need a certain amount of moisture.
Earl:
Grouse were very plentiful down in this bottleneck at that time. They used
the teaberries for feedin’.
Hilda:
Teaberries and thornberries.
(F)
Thornberries.
Hilda:
There were a lot of thornberries.
(F)
Those are goin' out too.
Jeannette:
And is that because of the change?
Hilda:
There's just a general change in everything, it seems. Course there has been
some disease in the ground too in the last 30 years. And then we don't have
trappers like we used to and we have more foxes I think. I don't think
there's too many foxes here now. We don't see any tracks in the snow or
anything like we used to. You know you could go down across the road and see
fox tracks. You can't do that anymore. So I think they're not even as
plentiful as they had been. Our wildlife's changing. A lot of the deer are
getting killed on the shortway. Five within the last two months were killed
right out front here. So they’re going pretty fast.
Jeannette:
Are there other kinds of game and fowl that have changed as well as the
vegetation here.
Hilda:
Well, we didn't have too much of anything, but deer and grouse and wild
turkey. Of course wch had more wild turkey than we used to, due to stocking
them in here. I don't think natural wild turkeys are as plentiful as they
used to be. The game commission hatches them and then brings them on in. By
1their nature they haven't become as wild as other natural wild turkeys.
They're like trout, just a little snarter. It seems like they are anyway.
They see things a little quicker.
Earl:
Why don't you tell about the bear that came into the woodshed?
Hilda:
Last April about midnight, this little black dog we have became very excited
and barked, He kept on barking and came to the front porch here. At that
time, he slept at the woodhouse. He kept it up so much that I became curious
and when I came down, I knew that he was scared by the way he barked. It was
a scared bark. So I let him in quick and then I went on out the back way and
turned on the light. There was a large bear in our bird feeder. She had
knocked the topoff it, and was sitting on her haunches picking the bird feed
out of the bird feeder. I called my husband. He had heard me get up to see
what was wrong, and in the meantime he fell asleep again I thought I'd never
get him down here in time to see that bear but he finally made it. He got a
good chance to look at the bear too. And then exactly a month after that,
the bear came in again with two cubs. But then we haven;t seen any of them
since. In the meantime, two bear have been killed up on the shortway. We
don't know if they're the same bear or not.
Jeannette:
What kinds of bear?
Hilda:
Black bear, a native black bear.
Jeannette:
Are there many here?
Hilda:
No, not too many. It's a rarity if anybody kills a bear here locals.
Jeannette:
Is this the way it's always been, that there haven't been too many?
Hilda:
No. Many years ago there were quite a few, more than there are now. I
believe. Of course the hunters have better access to the woods than they
used to because of the roads, and they can get closer to the place where the
bear live.
Jeannette:
Now getting back to the quitting and the hap. Hop would be like a
comforter.
Hilda:
Comforter, that's right. It would be considered a comforter.
Jeannette:
Was that fancier?
Hilda:
No. They were usually made of cutting, cotton flannel. You know what cotton
flannel is? They used that for the top and bottom. And to keep them from
being sailed so readily, they often put a strip of muslin over the top at
the neck end and would be able to take that off and wash it. My mother used
to make very thin material covers for her wool haps that you could take off
and wash so that they didn't get soiled.
Jeannette:
So you actually slept with those?
Hilda:
We slept under them with a blanket or a sheet depending on how warm the room
was. We had straw tickets instead of a mattress. We have a ticking filled
with cut-up straw. We had a straw cutter cut the straw about four inches
long and we'd fill the tick with that. We'd put that on the bed on the
spring and if you didn't have springs, you'd put them on just the slats, and
that was a very comfortable bed. You'd be cuddled down in it in the
wintertime. slept between paper mill blankets. A paper mill blanket is what
they roll the paper on to flatten it out, or did at that time. I think they
have a different procedure now. I know they do because I saw a demonstration
in Philadelphia not too many years ago on how they make paper and how they
roll it. But at that time, they used these complete wool blankets to roll
the sheets of paper.
Jeannette:
Is it like a felt?
Hilda:
It's like a felt and you could have it carded. In later years they used more
of a felt-type thing. It's real thick and heavy. I have a couple of 'em I
keep between my springs and mattress. It keeps the cold out and keeps the
dust from going down through on the floor. At that time, my mother used to
buy these paper mill blankets. I think after they were used a certain length
of time, they'd sell them. They were warmer. I have one right out here. They
keep you real warm if you can stand wool against your skin or your feet or
legs or anything. I'd sleep in a cotton flannel mighty in between two of
these paper mill blankets, all with this wool hap on the top and the straw
tick underneath. I was cozy as a buq in a tug in a real cool room that
didn't have any heat in it at all. In fact, our whole family did. My dead
and mother, as they were getting up in years, of course, had the room which
had the stove pipe which went up through the floor and that kept their room
warm.
Jeannette:
Was this from a coal stove?.. wood stove?
Hilda:
It was wood at that time and my father cut all his own wood. He always cut
the dead chestnut. After the bright we had lots of dead chest nut and he cut
the dead chestnut or the dead oak. Sometimes he'd cut live oak and then saw
it with a little circular saw with a gasoline engine for the power. He cut
the wood for the entire house. Sand Fun Lodge had 16 rooms when we lived
there and that took a lot of firing. We had to have a kitchen range and then
we had a big burner in the living room and one in the hall, and one on the
third floor.
Jeannette:
These were separate stoves?
Hilda:
separate stoves. And they were burnin' wood all the time and we never had
coal.
Jeannette:
Did you use all the rooms there or did you close part of it?
Hilda:
At hunting season time we did, but we kept them closed when just the family
was there. We had our three bedrooms and living room and kitchen heated. We
even closed the dining room off at times.
Earl:
Tell her how many hunters came.
Hilda:
My mother kept hunters all the time she was married and it ended about 1926,
I think. We had 54. My mother, sister and I did the cooking for them and
served hot cakes every other morning for that group of men.
Jeannette:
How many months would that go on?
Hilda:
That would only go on for two weeks in Deer season. Of course we had small
game hunters for rabbit and grouse and squirrel.
Jeannette:
But there wouldn't be maybe as many'
Hilda:
No, there wouldn't be as many, but for Deer season there was always a pretty
good crowd.
Jeannette:
Did you ever know how many cord of wood you'd go through?
Hilda:
No, I don't think we ever counted them. We just cut what we needed and burnt
it. And there's nothing quite like wood to make a good warm fire.
Jeannette:
What about faith healing in this area and powwowing?
Hilda:
Well, there's quite a bit of it. I had an aunt who did it, but I always
considered her powow as more of repeating Bible verses, ones that I'd never
hear. It was kind of a hub-hush affair too. Kids didn't get in on a lot of
these things unless you overboard them talking about it. They used to
pOWWOW.
Jeannette:
How did you become a person who was able to powow? Do you know?
Hilda:
I think that, as I remember, they used to say it was passed from man to
women or from women to man or something like that. Whatever did it didn't
teach the same sex. They taught the opposite.
Jeannette:
Within the family? Could it be somebody outside...?
Hilda:
I think somebody outside the family, I'm quite sure. But that sort of faded
out by the time I was old enough to have any real knowledge of it, so I
don't know too much about it. I know my had had a verse out of the Bible
that would stop blood. He always used that. My aunt did too.
Jeannette:
Do you know what verse that was?
Hilda:
I have it marked in one of my Bibles. I'm not sure which one. I believe it's
in Kings.
Jeannette:
What kind of people would go to a powwower?
Hilda:
I think people who were a little superstitious. I think they'd go for that.
I think usually they did powow and they were very superstitious about
tokens. I heard my husband telling you about that when I walked in. If a
bird would fly against the window, that was a sign of a death in the family.
If a shears would move by a violation of any kind that meant death too. My
mother wasn't much for that. She couldn't see that, She said if there's
anything that you hear that you don't understand, she said go ahead and
recitate. She said nine times there's a natural cause for it. She didn't go
much for it.
Jeannette:
But your aunt did?
Hilda:
My aunt is more inclined for that. She had Indian blood in her. Of course I
do to though to a lesser degree than she did. But my mother was German. She
didn't have any Indian blood in her. This was on my father's side of the
house.
Jeannette:
Now do you know whether the people that practiced powowow had books?
Hilda:
I don't know. The only thing I remember that stuck with me was the fact that
this stopping the blood by the verses out of the Bible. And that's the only
one that I really paid attention to because I thought it was authentic. I
didn't go for some of this other hocus pocus.
Jeannette:
Can you remember any of the stories about differant cured in a powow?
Hilda:
No, really I can't. As I say, I didn't take too much to talking about it. My
mother didn't either. And she'd always say, If you hear something and you
just don't know what it is, don't built up a lot of scary ideas about it."
She said, "Go look what it is and find out." I sort of have her philosophy
about things like that.
Jeannette:
Do you know whether anybody's still practicing that around here?
Hilda:
Not that I know of, none at all. I think they’reall gone.
Earl:
All the oldtimers have passed away, I think, that did it.
Hilda:
I don't know of anybody.
Jeannette:
Why weren't children sort of in on powow?
Hilda:
I'm not sure about why they weren't. I know why it wasn't carried down in my
case because mother explained it to me. She said a lot of these things that
people get all excited about are just things that are happening naturally. I
can't even think of some of the things that they used to have superstitions
about - all sorts of things. If you took an unbrella and opened it in the
house, you'd be sure to have bad luck. If you carried a shove through a
house, you'd have bad luck, or anything like that.
Jeannette:
Can you remember any other kinds of superstitions?
Hilda:
Well, like katydids. I think they're the cutest things that ever were. You
know what I mean? Katydids, the little green....? I bring them in the house.
I like to hear them, like the cricket. I love them. I like to have them and
feed 'em bread crumbs and keep them as long as they stay. We have a
neighbour that's still living here in our neighbourhood that said, "Oh!
Don't do that. You're going to have a death in your family before the year
is over. I don't swallow that. I still like the katydids - but that man is
still living here and is a neighbour of ours.
Jeannette:
Do you think he'd be a person that would know a lot of superstitions?
Hilda:
I don't really know. That was one of them. I know when I said I took the
katydid in, he said "You shouldn't do that, you're going to have a death in
your family".
Jeannette:
Were there any things that you were supposed to do or not do if somebody was
sick?
Hilda:
I know there's things that I've heard but they just don't stick with
me.
Jeannette:
I was wondering too, in terms of the powow, whether that was in certain
ethnic groups, like Germans practice it, or Scotch-Irish practice it or does
that sort of cut across the groups?
Hilda:
Well, I think maybe before my time, somebody might have been able to give
you a little bit more on that other than what I could because my aunt's the
only one that I came in contact with, you know that did things like that.
She died in 1945 and she was 81 or 82 at that time. But growing up with my
mother telling me that a lot of this stuff is horus poons and to investigate
to see whether any of this stuff is real or whether it is imaginary, I
didn't pay too much attention to it. I just took it with a grain of salt.
Well, don;t make 'em unhappy if they think they're alright.
Jeannette:
Merrill had mentioned that he thought he had heard something to the effect
that, by a certain age, to know whether you would be a person who practiced
powow, you had to catch a ground hog and kill it by the time you were a
certain age.
Hilda:
I think maybe he might have heard something like that but I don't know
anything about that. You know, the longer I live, the more I think some of
these things ? influence, I really do. I don't pay a bit of attention. I
wouldn't read a horoscope. I don't believe in it. I think there are people
who are a little bit more psychic than others but if they used it the right
way, that'd be alright, but I think we get carried away.
Jeannette:
You had mentioned the soap and the different kinds. You said you had a
short-cut recipient and how it was done before.
Hilda:
You know you butchered your own pigs and you had your ham. You cured hams
for the whole summer long and really it was remarkable how they would keep
well for you.
Jeannette:
Were these smoked?
Hilda:
Smoked hams. Cured and pickled. And my parents always did theirs in salt
brine, strong enough that you could carry an egg and only about a quarter of
the egg stuck up. That's how strong they made this. And then they would
smoke them with hickory smoke or corn cobs or something like that. And then
my mother in the spring of the year, would put pondered boric acid on the
tops of the hams and that would deter the bags from getting into them. Then
she'd put them in flour bags, flour sacks. They're those heavy flour sacks.
She'd tie them shut and hang them in a cool, dry place and we'd have ham the
whole year round. All those finds she'd cut off these hams when she sliced
it down for baking or trying, she'd keep from that whole year. The next
spring she would put them in an iron kettle and put in certain amount of
caustic soda in with the water and boil that thing down. And that's how we
made our homemade soap. And it's really a nice soap to wash with and we
didn't have detergents in those days, and of course we had soft water and it
worked alright. Try using homemade soap in a little had water and you'd have
trouble on your hands. You'd have a milky mass with no ends. Now I make mine
by using bacon fat and Banner lye or Live's lye and stirring it together to
correct proportions and I come out with a beautiful, white soap.
Jeannette:
Is it warm when you’re doing it?
Hilda:
Putting the lye in the cold water makes the water hot. And then you pour
your melted grease into that,keep stirring it until it congeals.
Jeannette:
So you're not applying any heat while doing it?
Hilda:
No. no. but mother did. She had to keep a fire under her kettle and bolt the
soap first for a certain length before it was ready to come out. And in the
bottom of her soap there would be a layer of real strong lye liquid, and
she'd use that for scrubbing board walks, and porches that were unpainted.
That would make them come off real nice and white. It was real hard
work.
Jeannette:
So it was really strong?
Hilda:
It was strong but it would make a purified and clean thing. They used to
keep their milk in crocks in the cellar. When the cream came to the top, it
would be skimmed off. Then at housecleaning time, probably twice a year, and
always once a year, if you missed the fall cleaning, you secured those
wooden lids that you put over the crocks with this Banner lye and it cleaned
up those pine lids like it was nobody's business. And they were clean; they
were sanitary and swelled good.
Jeannette:
Now the difference between her soap and yours is--she would add a lye?
Hilda:
She would add caustic soda.
Jeannette:
Instead of the lye.
Hilda:
But you could use the lye. You never see caustic soda. I think it was
stronger.
Jeannette:
Than the lye?
Hilda:
Than the lye that you buy today.
Jeannette:
Now when, after you mix this, it gives you a certain consistency?
Hilda:
And then you harden it and cut it up in squares.
Jeannette:
You pour this into a pan?
Hilda:
A pan, a wooden hold or shallow box or whatever you happen to have. It keeps
indefintely and I have used it in my automatic washer. People throw up their
hands. "Oh, you wouldn't use it in your automatic washer"? I said "Yes, I
would" I grind it in a food grinder and it makes it almost as fine as a
detergent and if you have your water good and hot, you get a beautiful white
wash out of it.
Jeannette:
You do?
Hilda:
especially on those days when you hang your wash out. I don't use it in the
wintertime because it'll dry in the dryer. But it works alright and my
daughter (I have a daughter who's 30 some years old, and she's married and
has five children) she makes soap and she uses it in her automatic washer.
It really can be done yet.
Jeannette:
Do you make soap periodically?
Hilda:
Once a year I make it. I'll give you a piece before you leave. Don't let me
forget. You better make notes about all the things that I'm going to
do.
Jeannette:
Will you be making soap this summer?
Hilda:
I expect to.
Jeannette:
Maybe we could take some pictures while you're doing it.
Hilda:
There wouldn't be anything to it. I just use a little dishpan and a wooden
stirrer and the lye.
Jeannette:
O.K. it'd be nice to see. (chuckle) How much do you need to make?
Hilda:
Well, I have a lot stored ahead. The longer you keep it, the harder it gets
and the harder it is to grind and also if you're using it by the cake, it
lasts a long, long time. It doesn't wash away very fast. But now if you have
a soft soap which a lot of people make, just a soft kind, that melts and
goes real quick.
Jeannette:
Now, can you make your soap different consistencies?
Hilda:
Yes, you can cut down on your lye.
Jeannette:
And have more of a soft...?
Hilda:
I'm not sure about that. I've never made the soft kind. For boiled clothes,
they used this kind of soft soap. They'd throw in a handful of this soft
kind, when you boil your white clothes in a boiler. And that hasn't been so
many years since we've done that, when you come to think about it. I think
about 1929 was the last we used to boil our clothes. After that we got a
washer which had a motor underneath. Before, we had no electricity. Up until
that time, we always boiled our white things and it really made them
sanitary and white.
Jeannette:
Would you do this once a week?
Hilda:
Once a week, on washday which usually fell on Monday. Of course we stopped
doing that. Monday doesn't worry me.- whether I wash Monday. I wash when I
need to. We had a neighbour here. I think she'd wash Monday whether it
snowed or just anything. She always has the prettiest wash. That's a custom
with her, wash on Monday. The week wouldn't go right if she didn't.
Jeannette:
Would it ake a good part of the day to do clothes?
Hilda:
Oh yes, it did take a good bit of time. If you rubbed your dark clothes on a
washboard, it was real work. It was especially hard after ou had a lot of
hunters and had all those beds to wash and you'd get caught with the spring
going dry. So my had used to load the big washing kettles on the wagon and
take them to the spring where his father had gone to housekeeping in the
lower part of the property, and that spring had never gone dry. Mr. Linn
knows where that one is. And there we'd build this fire and heat our water
and wash these sheets on the nicest day you could get after hunting season
was over. Of course at that time, hunting season was earlier than what it is
now. It's in November. And you'd have those Indian summer days. You'd take a
day like that do do your washin and it take a whole day to do this.
Jeannette:
Due to the work from the hunting
Hilda:
From the hunters.
Jeannette:
Otherwise you'd just do it once a week for yourself?
Hilda:
That's right.
Jeannette:
When you say soft soap, is that actually so soft that it doesn't form a cake
or that the cake is more pliable?
Hilda:
No, it doesn't form a cake. It's just like thick Jello. But I don't make
that kind. Now there's recipes for that, but I'm not so sure that I even
have a recipe for that. The kind I make now is a good, hard white soap. I
add a little chlorax, borax, and I use somethingelse in it too...ammonia.
Now long ago before they put any of that stuff in the boiled soap, it was
sort of a beige colored soap, but it wasn't a very appetizing looking color.
But the kind you make now, you can make it look nice and white.
Jeannette:
You can add perfume or something?
Hilda:
Yes, I've done that too. (chuckle) But I usually have to make a patch of it
and it takes too much perfume. Anything really good enough to really carry
through would cost too much, so if you're making the soap to save money,
then you wouldn't put a lot of perfume in it and loose your bargain.
Jeannette:
Do you make the soap because...?
Hilda:
I make the soap to use up my bacon fat because we don't use the fat and it's
a good way to use it up. You go to a sale, an auction, a farm auction and
they bring out lots of this homemade soap. You'd be surprised how that stuff
sells. It's a novelty. I have a friend down in the Lutheran Home in Camp
Hill that's 86 years old and she just loves homemade soap and I used to tak
e her quite a few pieces because she was used to using it. She uses it to
wash her clothing. She thinks nothing else quite works the same.
Jeannette:
How much bacon fat do you have to collect to...?
Hilda:
Oh, my recipe calls for six quarts, I think. It doesn't take too long to get
six quarts of bacon fat because today bacon is mostly fat anyway. so you can
get quite a bit of it.
Jeannette:
Now you make it once a year. Is that a double recipient
Hilda:
No, I usually use just one recepe at a time. Now I had a little more than
that this year because I didn't make any last year. I skipped last year, And
a good way to make your soap pretty is to take your